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 Post subject: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 20th, 2017, 8:03 am 
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Joined: November 17th, 2006, 12:20 am
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SDHSAA is looking at about the worst case scenario for 11A travel. Look at these travel distances on a Thursday Night:

Milbank @ Todd County: 357 miles one way
Pine Ridge @ Dakota Valley: 360 miles one way
St. Thomas More @ Dell Rapids: 360 miles one way

The worst part is that all 3 of these look - at least on paper - like they will be blowouts.

I know the state explored having all playoff games on Fridays to avoid this much travel on a Thursday, but between Comp Cheer and All-State Chorus they just couldn't make it work. I don't know what you can change to make this work out better (other than neutral sites somewhere in the middle?), just thought it was interesting how poorly this worked out for travel.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 20th, 2017, 9:12 am 
Walk On
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Joined: August 23rd, 2013, 10:13 am
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Or they could find a better way to get the 8 best teams in to the playoffs. Yes, Tri-Valley and West Central should just win their games, and they are in. But Tri-Valley and West Central are better than the 3 teams coming from the west.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 20th, 2017, 9:35 am 
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Joined: September 3rd, 2010, 2:37 pm
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11AAA and 11AA teams do it all the time. True, Thursday night games present a little bit different kind of problem. But the bigger concern is how those three teams made it into the play-offs without beating anyone from the east end of the state, Pine Ridge not even playing anyone from there, but playing 6 games with 11B teams and beating only one 11A team, LW (2-7). SDHSAA has made lots of progress lately (shot clocks, state tourney play-offs), but now its time to revisit the seed point formula.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 20th, 2017, 9:44 am 
Benchwarmer
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Joined: April 4th, 2014, 1:07 pm
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PumpedinPurple wrote:
11AAA and 11AA teams do it all the time. True, Thursday night games present a little bit different kind of problem. But the bigger concern is how those three teams made it into the play-offs without beating anyone from the east end of the state, Pine Ridge not even playing anyone from there, but playing 6 games with 11B teams and beating only one 11A team, LW (2-7). SDHSAA has made lots of progress lately (shot clocks, state tourney play-offs), but now its time to revisit the seed point formula.


Of the 16 winning teams in last night's playoff games, only three lower seeded teams won and there were only two games decided by less than 14 points. With seven classes of football in South Dakota, there is already a diluted playoff format. Maybe it's time to have a discussion about whether there is a need to have an extra round of playoff in the lower four classes.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 20th, 2017, 10:41 am 
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Joined: September 3rd, 2010, 2:37 pm
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Fair question. Maybe the lower 4 could follow the format of 11A and add an extra regular season game, and limit the play-offs to 8 teams. Following your logic, perhaps 11AAA-AA should rethink their play-off format. Why should teams with a miserable regular season record be in a play-off?


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 20th, 2017, 12:38 pm 
Benchwarmer
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Joined: April 4th, 2014, 1:07 pm
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PumpedinPurple wrote:
Fair question. Maybe the lower 4 could follow the format of 11A and add an extra regular season game, and limit the play-offs to 8 teams. Following your logic, perhaps 11AAA-AA should rethink their play-off format. Why should teams with a miserable regular season record be in a play-off?



I would not be opposed to cutting 11AAA and 11AA to the top four teams. There were no competitive games in the quarterfinals of either class last year (closest game was 26 points).

This year, in AAA, both Rapid City teams have to make the cross state trip to the Sioux Falls metro area on a Thursday night. Watertown and Aberdeen also will travel to Sioux Falls on a school night. If any of the four games are decided by less than 21 points, I'd be surprised.

In AA, Yankton goes west to play Douglas (and will get home about sunrise on Friday), while Sturgis goes east to play Mitchell (I hope Al's Oasis still has some pie for the Scooper faithful at about midnight). The Yankton/Douglas game might be close, otherwise, the other three will likely be blowouts.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 20th, 2017, 12:57 pm 
Walk On
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Joined: October 17th, 2017, 1:05 pm
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Its a shame that a team can lose to a team 32-70 and still host a playoff game while other teams are playing teams who are actually good. Todd County is seeded higher than St. Thomas Moore by 2 seeds but just got blown away this proves that west river schools should be required to play teams who have some sort of ability. Milbank lost by 7 to the number 2 team (Dakota Valley) in the state and it was a shoot out down to the last play but they have to go 5 hours to just blow a team out and go back home. Todd County beat 1 team with a winning record and it was another west river team who is a 11B team. The strength of schedule should be more of a factor in playoff seeding.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 20th, 2017, 2:25 pm 
Benchwarmer
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Joined: October 13th, 2015, 7:28 am
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This is why it took so long to implement the Sweet 16 for basketball. People always used the excuse of travel to not have the Sweet 16. My response was it happens in football EVERY year. No reason to worry about travel.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 20th, 2017, 2:27 pm 
Benchwarmer
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Joined: October 13th, 2015, 7:28 am
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CSDsportsfan1 wrote:
PumpedinPurple wrote:
11AAA and 11AA teams do it all the time. True, Thursday night games present a little bit different kind of problem. But the bigger concern is how those three teams made it into the play-offs without beating anyone from the east end of the state, Pine Ridge not even playing anyone from there, but playing 6 games with 11B teams and beating only one 11A team, LW (2-7). SDHSAA has made lots of progress lately (shot clocks, state tourney play-offs), but now its time to revisit the seed point formula.


Of the 16 winning teams in last night's playoff games, only three lower seeded teams won and there were only two games decided by less than 14 points. With seven classes of football in South Dakota, there is already a diluted playoff format. Maybe it's time to have a discussion about whether there is a need to have an extra round of playoff in the lower four classes.


There should only be 4 classes of football and that would help some of this. Two 9 man classes, combine 11A and 11B, and combine 11AA and 11AAA. Seeing so many blowouts in the state playoffs is a joke. Statewide and nationwide.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 20th, 2017, 3:05 pm 
Walk On
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Joined: March 3rd, 2010, 5:14 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Sioux Falls
Dawg4Life wrote:
Its a shame that a team can lose to a team 32-70 and still host a playoff game while other teams are playing teams who are actually good. Todd County is seeded higher than St. Thomas Moore by 2 seeds but just got blown away this proves that west river schools should be required to play teams who have some sort of ability. Milbank lost by 7 to the number 2 team (Dakota Valley) in the state and it was a shoot out down to the last play but they have to go 5 hours to just blow a team out and go back home. Todd County beat 1 team with a winning record and it was another west river team who is a 11B team. The strength of schedule should be more of a factor in playoff seeding.




I would typically agree with this about west river schools but when it bothers St Tommy it seems good to me!!


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2017, 5:44 am 
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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 7:01 pm
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Team Player 2 wrote:
CSDsportsfan1 wrote:
PumpedinPurple wrote:
11AAA and 11AA teams do it all the time. True, Thursday night games present a little bit different kind of problem. But the bigger concern is how those three teams made it into the play-offs without beating anyone from the east end of the state, Pine Ridge not even playing anyone from there, but playing 6 games with 11B teams and beating only one 11A team, LW (2-7). SDHSAA has made lots of progress lately (shot clocks, state tourney play-offs), but now its time to revisit the seed point formula.


Of the 16 winning teams in last night's playoff games, only three lower seeded teams won and there were only two games decided by less than 14 points. With seven classes of football in South Dakota, there is already a diluted playoff format. Maybe it's time to have a discussion about whether there is a need to have an extra round of playoff in the lower four classes.


There should only be 4 classes of football and that would help some of this. Two 9 man classes, combine 11A and 11B, and combine 11AA and 11AAA. Seeing so many blowouts in the state playoffs is a joke. Statewide and nationwide.

I agree! We have too many classes!
There is something wrong when you have a class where the best team is 6-3 .... Whisky Tango Foxtrot!! Are you kidding me?? The teams that don't (can't) win today would not win no matter how many classes there are. Why water the competition down so much that you have a class where more than half the teams are under 500? Maybe last year Mitchell competes well in the top class ..... and they probably do not win. So what .... isn't it all about the competition anyway? This year (again) the top teams in the state are in Sioux Falls and the SF metro area. I know: they have more student enrollment. Sorry, but the demographics of the state are what they are .... and the smaller towns are getting even smaller. It isn't ALL about the enrollment either or we could just stack the teams one to n based on enrollment and crown the largest enrollment as champion every year. The best teams consistently have the best coaching and the best feeder system and the best off season conditioning and lifting/strength/explosion programs.
And 9 man ..... wow .... here again too many classes by one.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2017, 7:46 am 
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4 classes--sounds about right.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 25th, 2017, 7:44 am 
Walk On
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Joined: January 3rd, 2007, 4:44 pm
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The 11AA experiment has turned into a debacle.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 25th, 2017, 11:37 am 
Benchwarmer
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Joined: October 17th, 2011, 8:14 pm
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Gideon wrote:
The 11AA experiment has turned into a debacle.

Agreed. Douglas gets a home playoff game in 11AA but gets beat by 2 scores by STM. West Central beats STM by 30 in Rapid but doesn't make the playoffs. 11B SFC and Winner beat middle of the pack 11A teams. Same debate every year - too many classes. You should have to really earn a playoff spot and the goal should be to crown a champion, not participation medals to everyone.

Every year it's evident about midway through the season that there are only 2-3 teams in each class capable of winning the championship. When was the last time a really lower seeded true underdog won a championship in football? Typically, the best team from a lower class would beat most of the teams in the class above them. I think Sioux Valley would beat most of the 11A teams and compete with Madison. I think Madison would beat most of the 11AA teams and compete with Pierre & Mitchell this year.

I do hope the SDHSAA looks at reducing the playoff rounds if they aren't going to reduce the number of classes. I know many of the smaller schools did not like starting a week earlier in August and reducing a playoff round would be one way to fix that mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 26th, 2017, 8:24 am 
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Joined: November 17th, 2006, 12:20 am
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recruit wrote:
Gideon wrote:
The 11AA experiment has turned into a debacle.

Agreed. Douglas gets a home playoff game in 11AA but gets beat by 2 scores by STM. West Central beats STM by 30 in Rapid but doesn't make the playoffs. 11B SFC and Winner beat middle of the pack 11A teams. Same debate every year - too many classes. You should have to really earn a playoff spot and the goal should be to crown a champion, not participation medals to everyone.

Every year it's evident about midway through the season that there are only 2-3 teams in each class capable of winning the championship. When was the last time a really lower seeded true underdog won a championship in football? Typically, the best team from a lower class would beat most of the teams in the class above them. I think Sioux Valley would beat most of the 11A teams and compete with Madison. I think Madison would beat most of the 11AA teams and compete with Pierre & Mitchell this year.

I do hope the SDHSAA looks at reducing the playoff rounds if they aren't going to reduce the number of classes. I know many of the smaller schools did not like starting a week earlier in August and reducing a playoff round would be one way to fix that mistake.


One thing to keep in mind: the 11A schools voted to move to 9 games and an 8-team playoff. If I recall the last year of 16-team playoffs the average first round game differential was 41 points or something in that neighborhood. 9-man schools on the other hand voted against cutting back to 8-team playoffs. They had the option to move start date up a week, to cut a round of playoffs, or to keep playoffs at 16 but cut back to 7 games. The overwhelming decision was to move up a week.

I get what you are saying on only 2-3 teams having a realistic chance every year, but that to me isn't a good argument for lowering the number of playoff teams. High school sports are cyclical, and some teams will have a wave of talent come through that puts them above everyone else. The fact that Colman-Egan has incredible size to go with their incredible speed is rare. Of course they're going to be a dominant team. That to me isn't a good argument for saying teams like Hitchcock and Waverly shouldn't get into playoffs.

Something else to remember - football is the only sport in South Dakota where a postseason appearance is not guaranteed. Everyone gets to play in the region tournament in basketball and volleyball, and everyone gets to run in regions in XC and Track, everyone gets to wrestle in regions, and everyone gets to golf in regions. Heck, in competitive cheer everyone gets to go to the state tournament. Football is the only sport where you currently have to qualify. I don't think reducing the number of teams that qualify is the right answer.

In my opinion, the state needs to move to in-class scheduling to help fix some of these problems. Dell Rapids has 140+ boys in the HS, while Flandreau has <85 boys in high school. Why are they playing each other? West Central has 200 boys and MCM has 80, yet they get matched up? I've found it very ironic (or maybe I should say hypocritical) that since the SDHSAA put in 11AAA/11AA citing a "safety concern" of those big schools playing little schools, they continue to schedule matchups like Dells/Flandreau and WC/MCM this year or Hitchcock (smallest 9B school) vs. WWSSC (largest 9AA school) last year. Sure, Pine Ridge doesn't have a lot of kids out for football, but they do have over 200 boys in their school while Crow Creek has around 80. I understand travel concerns come into play, but it'd be better for kids to travel on a Friday night during the regular season than on a Thursday night in the postseason. And I understand conferences come into play, but it might be time for some conference play to start to go by the wayside. Pine Ridge played Crow Creek (3.5 hours away) but not Todd County (2 hours away). If Pine Ridge just plays C-EB and Todd County instead of 2 of their 11B schools on their schedule, this probably wouldn't be a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 26th, 2017, 7:45 pm 
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Well, at least there was one good game tonight. STM pulls off the upset over Dells by driving down the field with around 2:40 left and then forcing a turnover on downs. Missed extra point turned out to be the difference in the game.

Milbank over Todd County at halftime 55-0
Dakota Valley over Pine Ridge at halftime 58-0
Madison currently beating Tea 43-0 at the start of the 4th.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 26th, 2017, 9:36 pm 
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Joined: November 14th, 2016, 12:45 pm
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As I said last year...(I think the Dakota dome football bill is about $50,000 as well + $25,000 in team expenses, awards, officials, and comp tickets?) page 22 http://www.sdhsaa.com/Portals/0/PDFs/Bo ... utes-R.pdf

Don't forget it's also about the money $$$. Seven championship runs sells a lot of programs, t-shirts, and most of all tickets (not sure if they get a % of concessions or not at the dome?). Might not be long they'll be charging for parking. It will be VERY difficult to cut the football classes down because of the dough this brings in. Yes it's about the athlete experience too (more kids/schools have a chance to play in the post season and possibly get to a state title game), but frankly Football, (Boy's BB and Wrestling state tournaments) pay a lot of bills for the SDHSAA and other extra curricular events that don't bring in much or lose money.

If your kid (or maybe your school) makes it, you are likely going aside from the ones that stay home and watch on SDPB. The SDHSAA just hopes whoever does make it, they travel well and the weather is good.

Interesting to look at the arena rentals/custodial fees, etc. for the hosting towns for some of our state tournaments. $96k actual for last years state A boys bb in SF? WOW, is that right? It also looks like wrestling out gated football by $31,000 last year? Combining that tournament will continue based on those numbers I would imagine. It seems like you can host a state tournament reasonably outside of SF and SF is about double or more of what the fees are in RC? Hmm...Maybe I read that wrong, but again interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: 11A 1st Round Travel
PostPosted: October 27th, 2017, 6:52 am 
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Big Blue has got the handle on this topic. Pay attention folks - it's the $$$.


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